Wally Hanks interview, transcribed (mostly)

It came to my attention recently that Wally Hanks is still alive and kicking.  He is best-known among youtubers, anonymous, and former Scientologists for being the guy that abused children while running a ranch for Scientology.  He was interviewed recently, and the poster asked for a transcription.  In the spirit of freedom of information, I am posting the transcription here as well as the original video.

See also:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q6_doSq5w0  (new video), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_obL32MQOk  (video of abuse)

U: User  WH:  Wally Hanks

U: Are you the Wally Hanks that ran the Mace Kingsley Ranch School?

WH: I started it years and years ago, I spent about half a million dollars (running it? cannot understand, he mumbles). U: I just wanted to ask some questions about the “Ranch”. I am one of the kids that were there. WH: What you mean? You couldn’t go through my program.

U: Yeah I did, down there on Avenue R-8 in Palmdale.

WH: Oh yeah Avenue 8 You know that was all done with my own money and my own time. It wasn’t really associated with the church.

U: But Debbie Mace running it, right?

WH: I did what I tried to do. It was chaotic, but uh.. but we did have we tried going to Sierras. Do you remember going to Sierras with us?

U: Yeah a bunch of times.

WH: Oh yeah we went a lot of places up there, sometimes we took courses sometimes we didn’t. We tried to learn wilderness skills.

U: Now I don’t want to give you a hard time, but I was sent to the Ranch to handle alcoholism, and there was a lot drinking going on every weekend.

WH: Well not every weekend, but you know.. I’m a (mime? wtf did he say?), I wasn’t a saint (laughing). I’m still a goddamn (mime? LOL). I’m still a trapper and a marine. There’s a lot of drinking going on in the marines.

U: So what do you think of Scientology now?

WH: Well Scientology didn’t do nothing for me, I did something for Scientology. We didn’t drink every weekend regardless of what anybody says, anybody says that they are fucking liars.

U: Have you heard the recording of you beating the kid on youtube?

WH: I don’t care about the internet, I don’t even have an internet. I’m dying anyway.

U: I’m sorry to hear that.

WH: Anyone wants to rub my name in the ground, rub it in the ground. Fact is I was discharged from the Marine Corps, and I’m a chaplain in the Unite States Marines. That’s the only thing I fuckin care about right now. Scientology and whatever them people are doing right now I really don’t care.

U: That’s good, that cult never did anything for anyone but themselves. Have you ever thought about speaking out. about how Scientology took all your money?

WH: Well you know they did take my money, it did cost me about a million dollars to get to OTVIII. I set that ranch up, that was my money that set that ranch up. Half million dollars. The fact is I did that for the love of man, I didn’t do it for the church or L Ron Hubbard, or anybody. I did it because I was raised in an orphanage. You know I got some really nice slick balls out of Seattle. They investigated all that stuff, and when i got out here at Edwards, they investigated it too. They said basically said, you know basically, I was a victim of circumstance. What really caused the ranch to go bad was that dumpin them fucking psychotic cases in there. I was told to run a kid’s ranch but they kept dumping them fuckin psychotic cases.

U: Did you ever have that brain injured kid named “Buddy” at the ranch?

WH: Yeah I remember Buddy, I remember Buddy, and Buddy did good until he set the wilderness on fire. That ain’t the psychotics I’m talking about, it wasn’t psychotic kids, it was psychotic adults. You know that they dumped on me out there, because the church don’t give a shit about them people. Once they get their money out of them, they’ll take them to just take them to anyone that’ll handle them. I tried to handle them, I tried to help them because that’s what I do, I try to help people (laughing), I’m still helpin people. I got 3 parolees on 2 bipolars at my little facility. But I’m aint charging anything. I never have charged anything. (4:11) The Ranch, I would say, that was a non-profit entity. A lot of people make a lot of money off that thing, but I never made a nickel off of it.

U: Did Debbie Mace ever get in trouble with the church, for all that stuff that went on? She was the case supervisor, right?

WH: Well I dunno, she got into hot water for a lot of shit. I didn’t hang out with debbie, or carol, or any of them people. The ranch was my property, my facility, and uhh my purpose was to show people survival skills. Try to deal with it, and they started dumping, you know, psychotic cases on me. It kinda (something) me a little bit. Right now I got psychotic cases, I learned a lot. I did OTVIII on my own dime. It wasn’t anything I earned off the ranch, cause that was a non-profit entity that cost that wound up costing me a lot of money. But I made it off my own ability. But I haven’t done anything with the church since ’99.

U: Well that’s good, things are going really bad for them right now. WH: I don’t give a shit about what they do, what they are. If they can make it happen, make it happen. If you can’t make it happen, then don’t. I didn’t like it because, you know, the bottom line is you had to do something for the person in front of you. That’s the bottom line. You gotta do it, you can’t charge ’em. People aint goddamn cash cows. I had a lot of disagreements with that, the expense of it and stuff. I kinda stay to myself, 62, just retired, some (wut?). And uh, going through a lot of surgeries and stuff. You know, I’ll be turning (cannot understand rest of sentence). They can bitch as much as they want, it isn’t going to make any difference.

U: Well I’m sorry to hear about your health problems. WH: Well, I’m old, I’m 63, you know, lot if injuries, lot of trauma, lot of this and that. But, goddamnit, I didn’t damnit I damn sure didn’t sit on my couch.

U: My parents are going through the same thing, and they are “OTVIII” too.

WH: Well, you know, the body is gonna get old. You know I spent 15 years in the marines. I beat all that shit up, then the railroad and stuff. It’s just surgeries, orthopedic surgeries and stuff. I’m not worried about it. Well, you know, I’m 63 and life span for someone that smoked camel cigarettes all his life and drank whiskey is probably 65 (laughing). I’m ready to go, I don’t give a shit.

U: So what do you do out in Edwards?

WH: We have a little facility out of here, if anybody wants to come out and interview me in person, they sure can. I’m chaplain of the Marine Corps and I’m commandant over Edwards Fleet out here. We got sailing boats and we teach Marines and Airmen how to sail. And we still go to (something) Basin and we still to go to the fuckin Mormons and I still teach these people how to do this stuff because that is who I am. You see? (laughing) These people are a lot smarter than the people I dealt with back in the 80’s.

U: You know, I always felt the ranch could have been really great for me, but all the “out ethics” that was going on there, really did more harm than good.

WH: Well when you got 22 people without ethics and one scummy asshole OT trying to keep it all (something)what the fuck do you think is gonna happen? Miracles?

U: There were only 8 kids with me ther in 1988.

WH: Yeah, well it went up to 22-23 then we had 6 adult psychotics. It went south pretty fast. But, nevertheless, I still paid for it.

U: So where did all the money go? Did Debbie Mace get all of it?

WH: Oh well they took their money off the top when they sent someone out, they’d take their money.

U: Yeah I remember my Mom writing a check to Debbie Mace for thirty-thousand dollars.

WH: That’s right, they’d pay me after their took their 40% off the top for nothin.

U: And no one got their money back? Even after things got out of control?

WH: Nah, they never gave me anything. I actually funded that whole program out of my own pocket. Because I was a writer, you know, at the time. (cannot understand last sentence)

U: Yeah I remember learning how to drive your 4×4.

WH: The purpose of the program was to teach people that if you make them able, grow up in the Sea Orgs, and they just kept dumping stuff and stuff and stuff, and you know, having too much stuff, going crazy, living in my own home. We went crazy. We never wanted girls, and they finally started sending girls out there. And girls are harder to deal with that boys. Lemme tell ya, they’re more clever, more sneaky..

U: I left just before the first girls came to the ranch, but I knew it would get out of control.

WH: You know that’s what happens. The fact is, we had a good program.. (end recording)

Part two:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5-twsPWCFg

WH: Anybody else would have come out of fuckin Vietnam crazy.  You know, we had a good program, a lot of guys call me and send me cards and letters and you know, it did save their lives.  You’ve got Marco (blank) that calls me every month and  Eric (blank) and a lot of the early guys you might know call me and write me and (blank).  You know, it had some good successes and guys went on to be successful and maybe some of them didn’t, I don’t know. 

U:  What about Marco?

WH:  Oh Yeah Marco, shit I got his number you ought to give him a call (laughing).  And uh, he calls quite often, he’s actually fixing to come out here and visit; we’re gonna go sailing.  Oh yeah, Marco and I went sailing quite a bit, we went out there maybe 15 times.  I still got a stable to sailboats out here I used for the Marines at Edwards and uh, the airforce people.  And uh, 1, 2 ,3 4  parolees and two bipolar cases I’m dealing with for the State of California.

U:  So you’re doing for the State of California what you did for Scientology in the 1980s?

WH:  The veterans, I work through VA.  I’m a chaplain for the Marines.  Uh, and I’m chaplain on base. So Uh, and uh it’s kind of like a veterans program, but anyone can get backed up, ya know? Particularly if you’ve got have mental issues and dealing drugs and stuff like that.  Get in trouble, but all my guys are ex navy, army, or marine corps.  The common denominator is they that they got on methamphetamine, and they got bipolar shit, or whatever the psyches call it but, you know it’s real and I gotta deal with it;  psychiatric drugs and their counselors and their psychiatrists and stuff and..  What we do is we pull the plug (cannot make out rest of sentence).  And I’ve got 8 trailers out here on the front row and I kinda run this trailer park.  And I have them stay out here, and we work as long as it takes.  They aren’t really paying me, it’s just something I do I because I like to help people.  They are doing well, but you can certainly come out and visit!  Yeah man, it’s north Edwards, we’re right off Highway 58.  It’s called Edwards Fleet, for my clients. (garbled here)  I am still using a little LRH tech but I’m also using other tech.  I’m dealing with the psyches and uh, and uh the medications and stuff like that.

U:  Have you tried cannabis at all for post traumatic stress?

WH: Well no, they get their medications from the psyches; most of  them are on Seroquel and uh, things like that.  You know, I just go with what their program is, and I monitor it.  If I see bad things I report to the social services that, you know “this ain’t working”, and you know, you need to modify it.  What have you.  The rest of it is mess work, and sailing, and going to the Sierras and keying them out.  Keeping the pace off them, like we do. And it’s manageable.  I’ve got a navy corps man that helps me. She was a case herself, she came through the system, and we she graduated my little rundown program, she decided to stay on staff.  It’s kinda like the old days, except of dealing with kids I’m dealing with the military (laughs). And Marines it’s a lot safer that way.

U:  So that’s what keeps you going?  Doing what you love?

WH:  Well it is what I love and you know, one day I’ll die.  Hopefully somebody will pick up the goddamn stick, because a lot of people out there need help.  And uh, you know there’s a lot of opportunity to put a program together.  Why do you come out and visit the program?  And uh, lemme show ya.  We got the same thing we had at the Ranch, except we don’t have any stupid horses and all that kinda stuff.  We use sailboats, and RVs, and go out in the desert.  We have campfires like we used to do when you were there probably.  (cannot understand, 4:34)  Every year, just like always.  And I got some people that help me, I got the marines that help me, that’s the main thing. I got a lot of help from the marine corp.  

U:  Well if I am ever stupid enough to come back to California, I’ll stop by and tour your facilities.

WH:  Well you do that, and if you know anybody that wants to talk to Cat and Wally, just give ’em my phone number. (laughing) I’m here till I die, and that might be sooner rather than later.

U:  Well at least you got to enjoy YOUR life.

WH:  I did, I’ve enjoyed life.  It has been wonderful, there ain’t a day that goes by I don’t think about the wonderful things we did and some of wonderful people we had.  Sure some of them were fucked up, sure I was fucked up, sure everyone is fucked up to some degree.  But you know, what when you come together as a group, those are the things that uh, make the difference.  I have photos on my internet, I got photos from all that stuff!  You know, from the ranch days,  to the fleet I put together in Seattle, from the fleet I put together here.  You know, all those photos are there, and all the people I kept them on file. Ok mate, well, give my number out! Tell me give me a call.  If anyone wants to come out, I’ve got guest quarters if they need to stay for a couple of days.  We’re on our winter sailing program right now, and we’re gonna got to (something) cove.  Then we got spring sailing ….
(End recording)

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The Middle Road: Scientology

Scientology has reminded me of a lot of things, and all I ever read was Dianetics.  It’s not because I’m a Scientologist, it’s by observing the many groups surrounding this semi-mysterious, controversial group.  As someone who tries to study every religion, I find myself on a middle road in terms of opinion.  People are entitled to believe what they want, but there ought to be limits to actions perpetuated in the name of religion.  History should have taught us this.

Like almost every other religion, Scientology has gone under a lot of scrutiny.  I think it is justified and logical, as part of the human reasoning process, we should question the validity of everything that comes our way.  From its inception, it was not well-received by governments because of its activity.  Most famously, Scientology was convicted of making the largest government infiltration in American History.  It should be also noted, that Paulette Cooper and the Mayor of Clearwater were “fair gamed” before David Miscavige came along.   The publication of a book about this was banned because of Scientology lawyers.  Lisa McPherson changed a lot of things, and now reading Marc Headley’s new book, I realize her passing made a lot of lives miserable.  It wasn’t just her family like I thought, everyone but the person responsible got punished, and this makes my flesh crawl.  It’s wrong in so many ways, I have a hard time coming up with words to describe it.  Lisa suffered, her family did, and so did Scientologists.  It’s odd this woman, who cannot speak, still resonates with purpose.

Fast forward past the tax exempt status to January of 2008.  Then Anonymous arrived, like a Calvary out of the dark midst of the internet.  They caught someone smacking a cat against the wall and made sure that person was punished for this heinous act.  Also, our awesome Canadian friends to the north from Anonymous caught a pedophile by using their brains and computers alone.  They went out to protest this semi-mysterious group, and all of a sudden the flood gates opened.  Information from left and right, and I had to buy Dianetics.  I had to know what I was talking about, the fundamentals.  It was boring to me, but someone else could find it interesting.  Anyway, I realize now that it’s a heck of a lot more complicated than that. 

The social structure within is absolutely filled with acronyms.  I’m studying medical terminology, and from this perspective one rivals the others in groups of letters, I swear.  The corporate structure of shell groups is not so amazing when you find out how it’s done.  RadioPaul1 of youtube has done a number of videos on this very subject, of closed down orgs, mailbox organizations, and orgs in strange places.  At the cable store in Hudson Valley, NY there’s a Scientology sign inside a cable payment center.  Scientology reminded me fact can be stranger than fiction.  There was a quote about the tone scale: 

In any event, any person from 2.0 down on the Tone Scale should not have, in any thinking society, any civil rights of any kind, because by abusing those rights he brings into being arduous and strenuous laws which are oppressive to those who need no such restraints.

• The “Tone Scale” is Scientology’s measure of mental and spiritual health; p. 145

No Scientologist has ever really been able to adequately explain this quote to me.  I would appreciate it if anyone could give it a shot.

My interpretation would be this: There are a lot of people who are 2.2 on the tone scale, more than most people know.  This would also adjust with changes times, like “The Great Depression”.  You think people weren’t depressed?  Because of these natural fluctuations, I would be innocently assuming that LRH didn’t mean it literally,  but then I read the following:

Unfortunately, it is all too often true that suppressors to a creative action must be removed before construction and creation takes place. Any person very high on the Tone Scale may level destruction toward a suppressor.

• p. 159

There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the Tone Scale, neither one of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the Tone Scale by un-enturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes. The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow.

• p. 170

The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the Tone Scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered.

• p. 170

A Venezuelan dictator once decided to stop leprosy. He saw that most lepers in his country were also beggars. By the simple expedient of collecting and destroying all the beggars in Venezuela an end was put to leprosy in that country.

• p. 171

Scientology is not fluff, butterflies, daydreams, or making shapes out of clouds.  It’s not tea-leaf reading crapola, Scientologists fiercely defend this mode of thought, philosophy, religion.  They are dedicated, hard-working, cut-throat at times, creative, debaters, and I also found they can be great people.

Paul Haggis recently gave up the Church of Scientology after 35 years because of the church’s support of Prop 8.  Sherry Katz and Mary-Jo Leavitt both wrote KRs (Knowledge Reports) that brought for the reality of what it is like to work under David Miscavige-Era Scientology.  It is not an “Ice Cream Social” or anything of the sort.  When Mr. Rathbun, along with other people such as Amy Scobee, Sinar Parman, Jackie Wolff, Gary Morehead, Mike Rinder came out with shocking stories also, of what it is like to serve someone who seems to, by many accounts, has an issue with megalomania.  Beating, unusual punishment, imprisonment is no laughing matter and is completely unacceptable.  You can’t call something a religion to abuse people, religion doesn’t work that way.   These folks had some great words when faced with irrelevant and silly pieces of information the church used to make itself look like the victim. 

Tommy Davis, the newest spokesthing, sent a response to the Times, which is quite telling.  See it here: http://www.tampabay.com/news/scientology/article1012575.ece  My favorite part is where Tommy said Rinder was resentful because he couldn’t roam with dogs in the big grass anymore or some crap like that.  His response was:  “I don’t want to run in toxic grass with rabid dogs”.  I think that was well said.

Tommy Davis, the poor kid.  He’s so bad at being the fall guy, it’s like watching a train wreck in slow-motion.  He at first said:  “I’m not familiar with that material”, to being offended about Xenu.  He also lied about disconnection.  A lady in Scientology had told a recently left OTVIII’s friends to take her off their Facebook.  That’s disconnection, that’s cutting off communication.  Another irregularity which I found to be sad and amusing at the same time:  Sherry Katz is awaiting her SP Declare because it GOT CLOGGED IN THE INTERNETS.  Meaning, her SP declare was emailed to people she didn’t even know.  Disconnection is part of the SP Declare, which you can read about here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SP_Declare#Abuse_of_the_.22Suppressive_Person.22_label

More about the internets, in recent blogs written by Scientologists, I think they perceive Anonymous as a threat or a pack of bullies, which is quite far from the truth.  In getting to know people from Anonymous, they come from almost every walk of life, in all different colors and sizes.  They may make noise, not to be jerks, but to grab attention.  When people like Uwe Stuckenbrock die in the RPF of multiple sclerosis, it’s not about fun and games.  When we find a picture of a man who died in the Fort Harrison Hotel, his skin nearly boiled off his body, the public gets freaked out.  When Tom Cruise went under a drastic personality change in 2004, the world noticed.  I think Scientology’s first big mistake was trying to stop the flow of free information.  One man had said; “The internet will be Scientology’s Waterloo”.  A Dutch woman, Ms. Spaink, was taken to court for 10 years and eventually won her case to post information about Scientology on the internet.  Trying to suppress information makes the public angry, suspicious, and can incite negativity.  Other religions have no problem posting their information for free.

So, I think the main purposes behind Anonymous would be:  stopping abuses, freedom of information, and at least lowering the cost of (or making it free) Scientology.  That’s been my observation.  Some people take issue with the doctrine itself, and what I would say to that is: all religious text is open to interpretation.  However, because of Scientology closing itself off from the world for such a long time, both sides have an attitude of distrust.

Anonymous hasn’t assaulted a single Scientologist, but there are incidents of Scientolgists assaulting protesters.  This is strange and unacceptable behavior as well.  Don’t believe me?  Please have a look at:  Lady protesters from Copenhagen gets shoved http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPBpS-TEjug , a minor in London  getting hit in the face by a handler  http://www.youtube.com/user/trapsicle , the infamous starbucks guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4_b3z2E-0I , Tommy Gorman (Former Scientologist) got assaulted and charges were filed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kpvsB_At_I , news coverage of Nashville assault of college student http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvHpFtjNg_c , the infamous Anon Orange assault at Gold http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTR07SgrXfU , and there are many others.   On the subject of youtube, here’s me:  http://www.youtube.com/user/Shalindriaharam

To date, no one has shown me a video of Anonymous hurting anyone.   They are not a terrorist group or a cult, it’s a loose collection of individuals who find the behavior of CO$ to be unacceptable.  I concur, and the reason they wear masks is so that they are not “fair gamed” and have their medical privacy violated like The Pope  http://www.angrygaypope.com .  The cameras are used as evidence, CO$ likes to make false accusations.

All that considered, I’m on the fence in regards to Scientology.  Dianetics wasn’t my cup of tea, but who am I to judge?  I’d be a hypocrite, however making observations is fair.  Scientology itself deeply needs reform.  Mormonism is a modern-day example of religious reformation, but my favorite example was Martin Luther.  He attempted to reform the Catholic church, that brave soul.  They tried to kill him over it, but in the end good prevailed.  We now have the denomination Lutheranism, which is somewhat like Catholicism, just a heck of a lot less dogmatic.  Today Martin Luther’s observations about Catholicism ring true.

In summation, I would like to refer my favorite David Bowie song, Heroes.   “We can be heroes, even just for one day”. Protesters, Anonymous, Freezoners, Ex Scientologists like Jason Beghe and Tory Christman, Independents, Critics like 13Heathens http://www.youtube.com/user/13Heathens, Writers like Marc Headley (I loved the book) and Paulette Cooper, Apostates like Tommy Gorman, these people are the heroes.  The dethroning of Miscavige should be the primary objective, his behavior has gone too far.  Someday (in a perfect world), I would like to see Scientologists sharing their beliefs in the same manner other religions do.  People fear what they do not understand, this is a big barrier to overcome.  However, it is possible.

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